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Talk:Dungeon
__toc__ I originally entered Ghost Pet Dungeon, because that's how it will be recognized as, but it was quickly changed to Pet Cemetery Dungeon. Don't know which is better, and don't want to create more pages just to be deleted.. Onicoe 13:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC) We should add to each dungeon title estimated times of completion. this saves a many people from starting a dungeon at 2am, and being grumpy as hell going to bed at 8am :Good idea, but I think the current estimated times are awful as a range. Perhaps listing as: Allow up to XX minutes for completion (LXX Group Recommended) or something would be more helpful. Ranges just suck in general: I mean, I have been through Gobball Dungeon in around 3 or 4 minutes and Blacksmith and Skeleton in less than 10 and 15 respectively... :: The problem with this estimated times is that there is no level definition so at gobbal dungeon a group of high level people can do the dungeon in 3 or 4 min a mid level people can take them more and a low level people can take it 30-40 min (thats the time of my first run in gobbal dungeon), at wabbit castle I went with 2 levels +120 xelor and feca and it took bearly 1 hour to do the dungeon, while some people have take 8 hours. So yes the times are going to be way off for some people.--Cizagna (Talk) 15:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC) ::: That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Sorry if I was unclear... I believe the time estimates should be directed towards slow/weak parties and that there should also be an indication of the sort of level needed to complete the dungeon. (No-one wants to waste a Dungeon Key). For example: Gobball Dungeon: Allow up to 90 Minutes for Completion (L30+ Group). Completion times should probably be moved to the individual dungeon entries if the ranges will be specified by group composition. Re order / format / rename I'm thinking we should order by Areas the dungeon as for example, Gobball dungeon its a boss (Royal Gobball) and a reward (Bow meow), Wabbit Castle is a Boss (Wa wabbit) and a reward (pieces of the wabbit set), Koolich dungeon its a boss (Koolich) and a reward (capture spell if you have the ingredientes to trade), etc. So it would look something like this. Area Name of the dungeon Type : Boss / Reward Level : Low / Mid / High / Insane : This is a dungeon of various types of "monsters", including "boss monster", and the reward is a "reward item/spell/emote". --Cizagna (Talk) 20:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC) :: Why would you want to order them by areas? Except the Pandala dungeons others are difficult to place in specific area and honestly, I doubt most players even care where the dungeon is. I would think there are 2 helpful orders: by level or by name. I prefer the ordering by level: low level dungeons, mid level dungeons etc. Also, I would reformat whole page into table with entries for each dungeon: Name, Item(s) required to enter, Reward, Monsters - Fogleg 08:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC) ::: Because I consider its more easier to find something by areas, as it has happened to my party where they want to go to a dungeon that its near their location so the start naming all the ones that are near the area, then they think on difficulty unless some one has a specific idea on what dungeon they want. But if no one wants i would prefer the Name way, as for the table... i want that and have test it, but will have to take out description information (thinking on people with 800x600 resolutions even thought its rare people still use them)--Cizagna (Talk) 16:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC) Example of Dungeons table sorted by names: Will edit the article page later if nobody has objections against the table layout. - Fogleg 20:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC) :To give you on an idea of what i'm telling :800x600 :1024x768 :1280x1024 If we think on 800x600 people it will be very clog making it longer to scroll down. Now here is one of my ideas I took the extra info of location out, people want the entrance location and they can use their maps, took the Set notes out of the rewards, because there are not static rewards there are possible monster drops so doing the dungeon will not assure you will get one of the set pieces. In this next example I have take keys out, because that info can be manage on the individual pages, most of the keys are logic the only one that may cause trouble is the larva dungeon key that its a tricky one and the bwork and bworker dungeon as they are the same and the difference are in the capitalization "K" and colors. And its optional but i also took the other monsters out, as what normally lures people to go to the dungeon is to fight special/unique/boss monsters. In case you wonder why I'm taking so much out is because I'm trying to stick to the KISS principle and thinking "what do we really need to know in a page that has a recollection of info from other pages?", and keep it as minimal as possible.--Cizagna (Talk) 21:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC) I quite like the last shortest version. Only thing I would add back are the possible drops of certain set pieces. I know those are not certain to drop, but if only place to possibly get farmer set item is in Daisy Dungeon, it should be mentioned as reward even when you do not always get them. The reason for the "Keys" was that most dungeons require simple Key item, but some (Pet, Wabbit Castle, Cawwot Dungeon) have special requirements to enter. Maybe add another column to the end for "Notes", where some things important enough could be mentioned. - Fogleg 08:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC) :Yes, but also most of those items are link to the unique monster so if you go to kill famished sunflower then you get the possible farmer set. But if you think its necessary leave it. As for the key info, I'm still reluctant because it will be better to manage that info on the individual dungeon pages, as they need a standardize look and format, where the info should be explain better. --Cizagna (Talk) 15:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC) Suggested Level I've removed the suggested level column from the table. Such information is too subjective and complex for a small column in a table. Instead, I think we should just segment the table into low, medium and high difficulty (per some of the discussion above.) --TaviRider 20:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC) ::That is why its called Suggested lvl. ::One of the most frustrating things with dungeons is the fact that u cant find any refrence to what dungeons a person should be able to do. So that in the end pl spend a lot of time getting ready to do something that lands up been increadable frustrating that should have been fun. ::For this reasion i am placing this back. The fact that we do not know how the finaly lay out is going to be should not mean that this most important information should not be displayed. Lets get this going and sort out the dotting of i's and the crossing of t's at a later stage. :::Depends on your idea of "fun" for some people the fun is to fight hard monsters and other people is to fight monsters that are easy to kill, as TaviRider said information is Subjective and it should be manage in the dungeon individual page, no here. So I will revert your edits. Edit: Tmdart won me on the revert. --Cizagna (Talk) 19:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC) I have been watching this play out for a long time and I do agree that the levels are very subjective. I have been "toying" with a damage based Sadida (EQ/Pois Wind) for a while now and I have been able to do a few of the dungeons solo since a shockingly low level. Let's take the blacksmith dungeon for example, the first time I tried it solo I was lvl 40 and I was able to defeat it (although just barely). Chances are pretty high that very few other classes could do this with even 3 or more at such a low lvl. Also, you have to remember that depending on the other members in your group, any level 1 character can complete a dungeon. This is the reason that I believe the levels must be placed on the individual pages. The amount of data required to explain it in enough detail to be worth even having at all, would just not look good in a table on the main page. The only way that I would even consider putting a "level requirement" on the main page would to be to simply use a type of difficulty scale as was posted at the top of this page (Low/Mid/High/Insane) instead of actual level numbers, but even that may be too subjective. --TM-Dart 02:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC) : If you guys really want people to stop putting in the suggested level column on the dungeon page, you should probably, in addition to reverting the page, copy the suggested levels added to the proper dungeon page. Or start filling in information for groups, levels and completion times yourself. If the information already exists, then people will be less likely to insert it in a place you don't want it. -- Toruson 02:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC) :: One of the problems is that people keep adding the column, but not adding any information to it. I have tried to copy any information I remove to other pages, but thats just me.--TM-Dart 02:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC) :: Also its hard to invest time to try to do this sort of stuff in my case when i have other projects and Sysops compromise, and real life to attend.--Cizagna (Talk) 20:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC) Let's just go with low, medium and high difficulty. "Suggested level" is way too specific because like someone pointed out above it varies for different class/build as well as the combination of party members. --Kishou 03:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC) : Great idea, makes the column slim --Cizagna (Talk) 20:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC) Thank you people for adding the Difficulty column, this allows us to do proper planing for our group nights and has already been used by us as a valuable tool. Treechnid's dungeon According to the game files, "Treechnid Dungeon - Entry" is located at ( -10, -4) Onicoe 19:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC) Lord Crow Dungeon and Minotoror Island I have fought through both of these dungeons on the test server. Both are mazes with fights appearing randomnly. Both hold their own dungeon maps. I'm afraid that I was not able to capture much more information than what I had in the short time that the test server was up. -Stillgrave Definition of dungeon reward It's necessary to discuss and agree on what dungeon reward means. From my understanding, this is something we acquire as a granted thing if we complete dungeon (not: drops or possibility to fight specific monster), and i think it's widely accepted. Now the other thing: are rewards supposed to be items and/or emotes, something material? I am asking because my edit saying that dp maze reward is saved zaap at amakna casstle (which is granted thing we receive after dp maze) was reverted and i'm not quite willing to go into editing wars, please share your thoughts. :The edit goes to Rifter user. Now about your questions. :*Any given thing that is accomplish/obtain at the end of the dungeon (it may require some exchange but its a 100% sure that you will get it), monster battle does not count unless its a 100% drop rate (not to be confuse with pp, like golden pearl or resurection powder) :Now here are the problems with the saved zaap as it can be valid but there is no mention of this on the Dragon Pen Maze page that is basically to get the key for the Dragon Pig Den, and the Dragon Pig Den the half reward is to fight Dragon Pig. So the save zaap info looks doubtful and weird as it would be something new developers implement. --Cizagna (Talk) 03:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC) ::Sorry for forgetting to sign. ::About saved zaap - It is actually mentioned by npc Fwed after beating the dungeon in one of his dialogs i didn't enter on his page. About it being reward - after doing dungeon game needs to choose one zaap to save, because while we are doing maze, our saved position becomes slab room. Probably that was easiest way for devs who didn't want to implement special functionality: disabled recall potions and used saved position for going back to slab room. Therefore, game needs to choose zaap to save, otherwise recall potion would send us to slab room which would mean easy access to maze without a key. ::Nevertheless, i still think it should be counted as a reward because it's granted thing after doing the dungeon. I will first mention it in dungeon page and if you agree, put it back in dungeon table as a reward. ::--Rifter 10:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC) :Ok so just one question to make sure, you can choose the zaap or its a fixed one (amakna castle)? --Cizagna (Talk) 18:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC) :: It's fixed as Amakna Castle, no option to choose --Rifter 23:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC) Dark Vlad Shouldn't he be added here? :This is a good question, but sort of hard answer. * Has a key "karne tooth" but its not like an official item that says "key". * Does not have a determinate/forced map layout as when you enter you can go back and forward with out problems, aside from new dungeons the old ones when you started now you must finish the dungeon or die. * Unique monster and thats "Dark Vlad" * Reward speak with him when doing a quest or fight with him to try to get one of his rare items. * Once the battle is finish you are teleport out of the place. :All this makes it a candidate for a dungeon, but my guess is when they design the forest they did it as a hard to access place with a steady respawn, like the dragon pig cave (until they put the random respawn on the little island + the dragon pig cave) * There is a dungeon condition that all the dungeons share except the dragon pig maze (from what i read) and thats its that if you dont kill the mob you dont advance. :So for that only reason i would not add it there, also the Dragon pig maze now makes me think if i should remove it unless its merge with the Dragon pig dungeon as the Maze its a require to be done (from what i read) in order to enter the Dragon Pig dungeon (like the wabbit castle keys quests).--Cizagna (Talk) 18:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC) :: Dark Vlad isn't the only "dungeon" with exceptions on key and advancement: :* Larva Dungeon requires Larva Follower to enter, which isn't a Key, while Wa Castle requires that you wear the Wabbit gear to enter. :* Larva Dungeon, Tofu Dungeon and Canidae Dungeon have optional mobs. You can skip two sets of Crackler/Crackrock mobs in Larva Dungeon, and there are rooms full of Tofu that you don't have to fight in Tofu Dungeon. :: So I think it may make more sense to have Dark Vlad be like a dungeon, given that he is more similar to other Dungeons with bosses. --GrauGeist 22:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC) logging out? if im in a middle of a dungeon and i log out will i log in inside the dungeon or will i teleport out? :If you log out (except in combat ;)), you are left where you were and can resume your dungeon trip when you log back in.--Lirielle 02:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC) what is the sand dungeon what is the sand dungeon?? :It is not included yet into game. -- Fogleg 22:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC) Changing the difficulties? Sorting of the dungeons Seems like someone decided to change the usual "low, medium, high, hardcore" dungeon difficulties with something based on a scale of 10. Difficulty is already subjective, why try to use a numeric scale? what makes daisy dungeon 1.1 difficulty instead of just 1.2? unless there was a METHOD, a numeric scale makes no sense. On another note dungeons could be sorted from low to hardcore on the table, this could help begginers to decide what dungeon to do next without having to add a "required" level row (I propose to sort the dungeons in descending order from "Very Low" to "Harcore")Trauco 15:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC) :About the order... think it this way by giving favorite the newbies you will make harder to search for a dungeon for the not so newbies, for the experts, for the hard cores and for some one that wants to find a specific name that does not know... "so oh yeah i want larval dungeon was it hard? wait no is medium ohh yeah". And i think this suggestion has been already commented above when remaking the dungeon table. --Cizagna (Talk) 04:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC) :I recommend against sorting dungeons by difficulty. The biggest problem is that we don't have an objective basis for the sort. Rating dungeons is quite subjective. Having actual minimum difficulty only applies in a few cases in which you need to equip something with a level minimum, or Incarnam which caps the level indirectly. Alphabetic order is the best at this point in time. As for the rating, the subjective "easy" / "hardcore" labeling is better. Numerical weighting is not justified. GrauGeist 20:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC) ::Any way... just discover that we can sort tables ¬_¬ its already installed on all wikia wikis. So every one can sort to their needs ' for editing purpose list must be maintain alphabetic' --Cizagna (Talk) 22:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC) New Version 1.19.0 The new version is released therfore Lirielle you can stop deleting the "sand dungeon" and "splincher cell" pages(well only the sand dungeon as no-one has tried the splincher cell dungeon yet). So the next time someone adds sand dungeon to the dungeon page list or adds the sand dungeon page please stop deleting it as it is now officially released. --Kiriath(Talk) 10:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC) : Hmmm well anyone know why my sign isnt working, i copied the scrpt from peets page and changed it to my user but it hasnt worked. the code is "Kiriath (Talk)" --Kiriath(Talk) 10:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC) :: HAHA!i fixed it dont worry. --Kiriath(Talk) 10:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC) :Over stated comment, and even if the version is release there is the chance it does not get included or name gets change like the mush mush dungeon that change to other name in the release and then change again to daisy dungeon --Cizagna (Talk) 01:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC) Dungeon Missing? I have heard of a "Splincher cell dungeon". Not sure if it exists but i have heard people recruiting... and buying keys and stuff. --Kiriath(Talk) 15:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC) : Dont worry, me being stupid!